In light of yesterday's events:
Psalm 139
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David.
1O LORD, you have searched me and known me!
2You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar.
3You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways.
4Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.
5You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it.
7 Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
9If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.
11If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light about me be night,"
12 even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is bright as the day, for darkness is as light with you.
13For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.
14I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16Your eyes saw my unformed substance;in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
17How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!
18 If I would count them, they are more than the sand. I awake, and I am still with you.
19Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God! O men of blood, depart from me!
20They speak against you with malicious intent; your enemies take your name in vain!
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
22I hate them with complete hatred; I count them my enemies.
23Search me, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts!
24And see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting!
1. God is completely omniscient. He has all knowledge of the past present and future........ therefore;
2. No one can add one second to their own life or anyone else's....... therefore;
3. No one dies before their time........ therefore;
4. No one "saves" anyone's life........ therefore;
5. Is anyone more than a little disturbed by the fact that a church feels it must have armed security........therefore;
6. It is time for the modern/post-modern church structure,i.e Herod's Temple, to be abandoned.
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38 comments:
David was also a warrior. And he had armies.
By your logic and reasoning armies and police forces and security forces are ungodly.
As a mother in North Carolina whose son goes to that very church on Friday nights,(he is in school in that city) I am very glad that woman was there. And as a believer in both divine providence and "the divine decree" AND as someone who does NOT believe in Open Theism-I truly believe she was there for "such a time as this."
But for her how many more would have died? BUT GOD HAD HER THERE. Perhaps you do not know whe had just come off a three day fast, seeking God for her future?
I counsel you to repent for your hurtful accusation at this time toward a church that is mourning the loss of two young sisters. You should be ashamed of yourself.
David also wrote Psalm 139. The church of today hasn't a clue what that Psalm says.
According to Romans 13 God appoints civil authority. Hired guns in the church, are not civil authority.
America has a "comeuppance" that is overdue.
Where are the tears for the killer and his family? Only;" thank God that ours and mine are ok because we are the king's kids."
New Life needs to repent for the trash they advocate, like the Cleansing Stream.
American nationalism masquerades as the gospel in our churches.
The souls of the departed are in God's hands. I predict we will hear nothing but bilge from the "prophets".
When the Son of man comes, will He find faith? Very little apparently.
BTW,
I will repent when I have done something I should repent of.
Are you actually upset that this evil person did not complete his own delusional mission and kill 1000 people, which is how much amunition he had? I beleive in a sovereign God Who stopped the killing from going any further. These "hired guns" in the church are legally allowed in our country. Didn't you read or hear about the people in the parking lot of this church who saw the gunman and began to pray for him? Yes I agree with you about the heresey, false teaching and apostasy that is coming from many places that claim to be Christain but
God is also allowing this to happen. Be careful not to walk in the pride of your knowledge of the Truth.Faye
By the logic of the one who posted this article, it was time for the armed perpetrator to die, therefore God sovereignly utilized circumstances to cause his life to be ended and the poster shouldn't be complaining about it.
And BTW I have BIG issues with the teaching that comes out of New Life church and a lot of other apostate evangelical churches. It does NOT mean that I would stand by allow someone to go in and slaughter them.
How can so many miss the point?
Did I say I am advocating what was done? Did I say that I would stand by and let it happen?
David wrote Psalm 139, Does it not mean what it says?
Is God not sovereign? Does he not have complete prescient knowledge? Why aren't you angry with Him who allowed it to happen?
It just isn't possible that God would want His people to repent, is it?
The church in the U.S. is a selfish, and self-centered monolith.
Matthew 26:
51And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?
John 18:
36Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world."
Is a servant greater than his Master? The true church does not need bodyguards(like most of the media preachers).We have not been given the spirit of fear.
Matthew 6:27 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?
I bet the martyrs wish that they had had armd guards too.
Yes God is allowing this, and other things also. How is proclaiming this fact prideful?
I am declaring what is in His word.
My church prayed that only the voices of true apostolic and prophetic ministry would be allowed to be heard.
Our prayers are also with the innocent, who always suffer in such circumstances. The two young sisters, along with the saints in Arvada that were murdered, are part of the body of Christ, so we grieve with those who grieve.We also do not grieve like those who have no hope.
Do not assume facts not in evidence.
I suggest that like 911, the church will let this fade out of memory also, and completely miss the issue.
Put another way: Who Would Jesus Shoot?
God also uses man to carry out his will. Was the woman security guard acting outside of God's will? Has God not sovereignly used man as a means to accomplish his will throughout scripture?
The argument you use against security could also be used for it! The security guard could also reason that since God is in control, I'll just blindly shoot down these crowded corridors and God will let the bullets hit whom he wants dead and miss those he wants alive. The fact of the matter is that that is ultimately true, but God is not only sovereign in the results. He is also sovereign in the process.
For the Monday Morning Quarterbacks:
God Almighty did not have YOU there, at the Church.
He did have a person trained as a Police Officer there, and at that time.
GEN 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." KJV
Did you ever think that some larger churches have had death threats, etc. made against them and their staff people?
I don't think that reflects on the church as much as just the sad reality of a broken world.
Do not confuse what God "allows", as His will. He works His will through the follies and foibles of men
God foreknows all events, and all things work together for good, whether we think so or not.
Yes, He is sovereign in process.
The problem is we make a formula out of it. There are many mega churches that have armed men all over the building,generally un-beknownst to the congregants.I believe the issue here is;is it God's will for the church to have armed security in the church? If it is then how will that play out in the churches of the non-western world who are not given the freedom to "defend" themselves?
The right to keep and bear arms is a uniquely American thing.
No one can say that hundreds of lives were saved, as that is a conjecture. No one can say such a thing for a certainty. God can intervene at His sovereign decision.
I would like to ask konolia just what is the accusation that you accuse the author of this post of bringing?
As far as I can see, he is not saying anything against the innocent victims of this tragedy.
Another thought is why no one addresses the actual content of the post and comments, especially the Scripture. We are lead by our emotions and not the Spirit.
Jesus and the early church were threatened with death everday. I do not see them hiring guards. All of this is the sad reality on "christendom".
I think we should abandon flying in an airplane because the passengers of United 93, violently stopped the mass murderers of 9-11 from killing as many people as they originally intended.
(*sigh)
terrier gal
It is not the same thing.
I am talking about the church, or what claims to be the church, to be more accurate.
Shammah ben Agee said:
"How can so many miss the point?
Did I say I am advocating what was done? Did I say that I would stand by and let it happen?
David wrote Psalm 139, Does it not mean what it says?
Is God not sovereign? Does he not have complete prescient knowledge? Why aren't you angry with Him who allowed it to happen?
It just isn't possible that God would want His people to repent, is it?
The church in the U.S. is a selfish, and self-centered monolith."
I say:
your article and your words infer that you somehow revel or delight in the fact that this situation occured and as much as we know that these types of churches are indeed a "Temple of Herod" and the entire edifice should be torn down and will face judgment for the false Theology that they preach.
We however who claim to be of Christ should not sit back and write unwise articles that make it appear as if we are reveling in God's Judgment on others.
On the contrary we should weep for the state of the American Church and pray to God to forgive them and that true repentence will come to our land.
Your article was in extremely bad taste.
OK so if a church isn't THE church (though it claims to be) then just don't go to THAT church. Utterly ridiculous to paint every church with the same brush. It has nothing to DO with what this lady did. And even if this happened in an apostate church (which is essentially the same as an airplane full of unbelievers) then I wouldn't stand by and let some idiot massacre the bunch. I sure you lie down and take it without complaining if someone ever wants to harm you or someone you love, or an innocent bystander, NOT because you or the other victims are Christian, but just because you are THERE. Otherwise you'll be one big hypocrite. And boy, if you sit back and let some unbelieving person get killed because you don't want to soil your precious pure hands, won't that be a great witness.
You said:"According to Romans 13 God appoints civil authority. Hired guns in the church, are not civil authority."
Yes they are. We have the freedom to bear arms in this country, therefore if you want to hire security, you can.
""How can so many miss the point?
Did I say I am advocating what was done? Did I say that I would stand by and let it happen?"
Maybe because you express yourself poorly. Or not at all. Or you expect us to read your mind. I dunno.
Yes, your entire post implies that you are not happy with the idea that a Christian should use violence to defend themselves or others. Therefore by extension, you are saying you would not do so. Don't try to wiggle out of this one. It's pretty clear. When one person goes off and misunderstands, that's one thing and you might have a case, but when everyone sees your inconsistency, then the problem is less likely to be with them.
"New Life needs to repent for the trash they advocate, like the Cleansing Stream."
I think you're absolutely right there.
Still not getting the point.
My post and comments are pretty black and white.
I do not revel in anything. I posted Psalm 139, along with some points and a question based on that psalm and the tragic events of Sunday. That is all I did.
I get accused of reveling in tragedy and making a hurtful accusation although I cannot for the life of me figure out who I accused or what I accused them of.
Suffice to say there will be more of this, and even worse.
I wonder if Jeremiah was accused of reveling in the word he gave, or the apostle John, when he penned Revelation.
But I speak foolishly here as I am not Jeremiah, or Paul, or John, or Jesus. I am not perfect or without sin myself. I am not always right, so I cannot say anything about this. What a wonderful world of relativism we live in. Based on this no one can speak the Word of God. No one can be a police officer as most likely one will have had a traffic ticket in his past, or worse.
In the next few days we will hear about Satan's attacks,what is going to happen in "08" etc etc
I find it sad and amazing that the perpetrator of this carnage comes from a christian, homeschooled background.
1 Peter 4:
12Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice insofar as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. 15But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler. 16Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name. 17For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?"
Peter is speaking to a suffering obedient church and also about those,in the church who are disobedient.
The judgements thrust upon Israel came from God. The exile was ordained by God upon an apostate people. The triune God of the NT, is the triune God of the OT.
Jesus is presently and actively fulfilling the entire scripture.He is the same yesterday,today and forever. Don't tell me that God does not send judgement on His church today because we are under grace. Peter completely contradicts such a notion. His judgement is mercy as he disciplines those whom He loves.
We are entering new days and everything will be revealed.
Does anyone really believe in the supernatural and divine power of God to deliver,save,protect?
I don't care about the right to keep and bear arms.Own a gun if you wish. own a dozen if thatsatisfies you.
We also legally have the right to abort the unborn in this nation, are we required to do it?
We can get drunk if we are 21. So??
This still does not address the church world-wide. What about them. In America we could care less about anything that isn't American. We think Jesus is an American. We think America is a christian nation. If it ever was, it is surely not now.
I never said to sit and do nothing when confronted. That is your conclusion.
My purpose is to warn of the lunacy that will be spoken from pulpits all over this nation in the weeks and months to come.
As is the usual, all scripture brought into the debate is ignored since the general concensus is scripture cannot be understood and/or declared dogmatically by anyone.
We had better wake up.
"Still not getting the point.
My post and comments are pretty black and white. "
I agree. But I think you're backtracking without wanting to admit it. Either that or you are just completely ignorant of what you said and implied in the original post.
Tell me, what do you think of Jael in Judges 4?
5. Is anyone more than a little disturbed by the fact that a church feels it must have armed security........therefore;
Ok let's start at the beginning. There you disparage the idea that a church should have armed security. The ONLY possible reason for this (since I'm sure you wouldn't be silly enough to argue that secular places should not have armed security) is that it is unChristian to have to use violence to defend oneself, and that Christians should not do so. This is the NATURAL conclusion from what you said. You cannot dodge this and blame the readers and whine about being misunderstood.
6. It is time for the modern/post-modern church structure,i.e Herod's Temple, to be abandoned.
I agree that probably 90 percent of today's churches are apostate or nearly so. But this statement you make is utterly ridiculous unless you are talking about a specific church body or specific stream of false teaching/specific false teacher.
You cannot simply say "abandon all churches" because one does something you find disturbing, whether or not they are right. Fine, flee New Life. I would have fled New Life long before this incident. By all means, Flee false teaching! But that is a competely separate issue from the shooting and/or armed security in the church, and your attempt to connect the two is preposterous and fallacious in reasoning.
Your last post was even more confusing. I have no idea what you were trying to say except "everyone misunderstands me and I cant' figure out why." Well, join the club. It takes a lot of time and frankly, I've been doing it for about 17 years. And I still run into people I cannot please no matter how I say something.
However in your case I don't think that's what is happening. I think you need some organization to your thoughts and some sharper critical thinking skills, as well as better writing skills with which to express your thoughts.
Backtracking?
What did I imply in the original post?
1.God is sovereign. He knew this would happen before the world was made.
2. I think we need to read Job 1 several times.
3. The mega churches are going to have to learn to live with their notoriety.These pastors spend all their time attracting attention to their fiefdoms. Seems that they got what they wanted.
4. Our days are numnbered by God.
5. The church in this nation is faithless and fearful.Thank God I attend a church that will never agree to arming the congregation. What a witness. Should we give kevlar to the choir and let the pastors pack heat?
6. Most "secular" places do not have armed security.
7. I cannot justify arming ourselves based on the fact that the Lord and all the saints throughout history never did so.
This is more than an insult to the martyrs. We carry guns and put metal fish on our cars.
8.We seem to forget that there have been several incidents of shootings in churches in the last two or three years. Strange that they did not attract the attention that this one has.
9. Of course none of the churches will shut their doors. Pick a church or ministry. Daily I talk with pastors and am conmpletely saddened by what they consider the work of the kingdom to be.They know nothing.
I was specific, as I said both modern and post-modern churches. I see nothing of value at this time.
As for Jael are you advocating that we all bring tent pegs and hammers to church also?
The time of the judges was a wretched period of Israel's history.
The writer is recording what happened in the days of Deborah and Barak. I see nothing that would put a seal of approval on anything Jael did, or encourage the saints to use such tactics.
My writing skills are fine, and I don't whine. The issues are much bigger than even Sunday's events. Sadly most believers are not big picture people.
What I normally encounter are people who bring an agenda to a blog before they read it.
Daniel 7:
21As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, 22until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.
Rev 12:
11And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.
Rev 13:
7Also it(the beast) was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
The problem is no one reads the Word, nor preaches it. We will go through the tribulation.We are not commanded to defend ourselves,Tim Lehaye's drivel to the side.If we haven't decided long in advance that we will give our lives for Christ if need be, then when the time comes, we will fail.
We haven't seen anything yet.
terriergal,
I found this post yesterday. It disgusted me.
The whole argument is based on folly. Basically put.
"God is sovereign. We should do nothing."
"God foreknew, we ruined His plan."
"Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him.
Answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest he be wise in his own eyes."
shammah, "you are the man!" to use Davidic history. You sir, are out of line. I don't say this angrily as much confidently.
Is not murder of an unsaved person still evil? You speak sir, of what you do not know.
Indeed, this may be the beginning of the end in Judgment terms. So was the Garden of Eden. We are called to say "how long, Lord?" NOT "see, I told you this would happen".
The problem is this. You hate the truly apostate church when you should be heartbroken for them. You should be thankful that there are more still around to be turned to the Truth.
My heart breaks for the man that did this evil. My heart leaps that God had an instrument there to squelch the the arrows of the evil one.
You would do well to remember that.
This is my answer according to your folly.
I pray you repent shammah
One other thing,
You may want to consider the possibility or fact that you "brought an agenda to a blog before WRITING it".
Please think about that, and again, please repent.
pastor j,
AMEN and AMEN
2 Samuel 11-12:
"And after him was Shammah the son of Agee the Hararite. The Philistines had gathered together into a troop where there was a piece of ground full of lentils. So the people fled from the Philistines. But he stationed himself in the middle of the field, defended it, and killed the Philistines. So the LORD brought about a great victory."
hmmm
Your namesake may have a lesson for you, Shammah
konolia,
I read your post and comment thread about marriage. Looks like that was a hard fight. I recently studied the subject of marriage myself, you might want to check it out. It may help in such circumstances later on. I posted a comment there as well.
Another soul who cannot read words on a page.
I did say God is sovereign, and I did say God foreknew.
I did NOT say do nothing, and we ruined His plan.
Job 42:
1Then Job answered the LORD and said:
2"I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
Who can ruin God's plans?
Do what he has commanded us to do.
John 12:
24Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25 Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.
Here is the big question; where did I say "see I told you so"?
You are inserting your own eisegesis here.
There have been many warning of these kinds of, among others, things for years; but hey they are fear-mongering, unloving, fundies.
What troubles me is faithless "christians" fear (which is the opposite of faith), and gross ignorance.
I do not hate, (more eisegesis), the "apostate church"; which is a misnomer, as anything that is apostate is not the church.
This is what I love about the touchy-feely blog world. No one can speak the hard word, as emotion and feelings rule the day. You can tell me what you think I am feeling and thinking, but not the other way around. No one can speak the word, period.
You are right about the murder of the young man, which has been my point all along.
Good Lord, does anyone have comprehension on this planet? BTW you are not Nathan, so I reject your attempt at ripping a scripture out of its context.
Someone should have spoken to the "evil man" before this happened as it is slowly becoming apparent that there were signs before this event happened but of course the church which lives in la la land, puts its head in the sand.
If your heart breaks, then do some pre-emptive work and not the usual hand-wringing post facto.
It's my blog and my "agenda" I can write on what I want.
No one has yet to read what was actually written.
Mark 9:
17And someone from the crowd answered him, "Teacher, I brought my son to you, for he has a spirit that makes him mute. 18And whenever it seizes him, it throws him down, and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid. So I asked your disciples to cast it out, and they were not able." 19And he answered them, "O faithless generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him to me." 20And they brought the boy to him. And when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth. 21And Jesus asked his father, "How long has this been happening to him?" And he said, "From childhood. 22And it has often cast him into fire and into water, to destroy him. But if you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us." 23And Jesus said to him, "'If you can'! All things are possible for one who believes." 24Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, "I believe; help my unbelief!" 25And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again." 26And after crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse, so that most of them said, "He is dead." 27But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose. 28And when he had entered the house, his disciples asked him privately, "Why could we not cast it out?" 29And he said to them, "This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer."
The church's problem is twofold; there is no intercession and I mean real intercession, not bless me prayers. As a matter of fact, most do not pray until someone breaks in their building with a gun.
The second and most important, is Christ is not present. Behold he stands at the door and knocks. Why?? We are too busy to even recognize He is outside.
When He is present, demons flee.
Did God need someone to be there to pull the trigger? Is He not able to save in divine power"
We are too enamored of ourselves and our own righteousness. We talk too much about what God does "pro me" and not of our own disobedience
Jesus said;
"'If you can'! All things are possible for one who believes."
Who believes? Not many think God can or will do anything. So go to your "apostles" for protection.
May these words be a rebuke to us.
Daniel 3:
15Now if you are ready when you hear the sound of the horn, pipe, lyre, trigon, harp, bagpipe, and every kind of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, well and good. But if you do not worship, you shall immediately be cast into a burning fiery furnace. And who is the god who will deliver you out of my hands?"
16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego answered and said to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17If this be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18But if not, be it known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up."
" he will deliver us....but if not..."
Shadrach,Meshach, and Abednego are apparently guilty of what you accuse me of.
The enemy gets one shot at me so he better make it count.
My hope is not in saving my life and my "stuff". there are plenty of teachers and ministries that will tell you how to do that.
My hope is in the resurrection of the dead.
So if anyone wants to come and shoot up the church I attend, he will have easy pickings.
The real issue that you have with me, is that I prefer the unvarnished truth, even when it hurts.
Finally I also find it disturbing that the woman guard granted an interview and posed for pictures. If it was me that did this I would be staying out of the limelight and travailing in sackcloth and ash.
The gospel that is being shown is
"I follow Jesus and I carry a gun"
not "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand" which is what Jesus and John the Baptist preached.
The overwhelming conclusion is that God, in His foreknowledge, had her there in anticipation of this event.
If that is so, and God's main purpose was protection, then why did anyone die? He apparently failed.
What if the Lord is saying something that is once again being ignored.
All the souls who died that day are in His capable and loving hands.
Should anyone wish to continue debating, do so in substance and not style. You have no clue about my "tone" (which is all anyone is ever concerned with) or my innermost thoughts.
I give you credit for at least trying to use scripture.
Once again, is God telling us through Shammah's (and the reference to Jael) story that we should kill those that hate us?
Jeeeesh, and they call me harsh!
Who or what are the Philistines of today?
Eph 6:
"10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm."
2 Cor 10:
3For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. 4For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. 5We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,"
All the Law and the Prophets are fulfilled, and are being presently fulfilled, in Christ, so we do not have to literally kill anyone.
So now we see problem number three in the church;
The church knows neither the scripture nor the power of God.
Matthew 10:
26"So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 27What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. 28And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. 32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
What is being shown here is what the charismatic/messianic/word of faith/tbn/America is the kingdom crowd have done to the visible
entity called the church.
Alright,
whew.
you said:
"BTW you are not Nathan, so I reject your attempt at ripping a scripture out of its context."
No, I am not Nathan. That is irrelevant. I am neither Samuel, or Paul, or Mark or anyone. I simply believe what God did and said through them.
You reject what I said in reference to Nathan for other reasons. I also remember this that you said:
"But I speak foolishly here as I am not Jeremiah, or Paul, or John, or Jesus. I am not perfect or without sin myself. I am not always right, so I cannot say anything about this. What a wonderful world of relativism we live in."
Your argument there is dead.
I am Samuel Joseph Walker, son of Paul Walker, a Pastor, and co-editor at CRN. I have been hated and slandered in my local Association for standing on Absolute Truth, the Gospel of Repentance, and defending and championing the Reformed Faith from the Word. You do not know who you are addressing.
You said:
"It's my blog and my "agenda" I can write on what I want.
No one has yet to read what was actually written".
Do you not see what this is, or least what it looks like? Come off of it man!
I did read what was actually written. That is why I am here now. Your implications in the post itself indicating it is unGodly to have guards at a Church, and then your own words in this thread like this:
"God appoints civil authority. Hired guns in the church, are not civil authority".
and:
"Did I say I am advocating what was done? Did I say that I would stand by and let it happen?
are indicative of not only what was written, but what is behind what was written".
followed by:
"So if anyone wants to come and shoot up the church I attend, he will have easy pickings.
The real issue that you have with me, is that I prefer the unvarnished truth, even when it hurts".
You speak with passion, but you aspire to a martyrdom you do not necessarily merit. And you brag that you will not defend the sheep from wolves.
The "unvarnished Truth" is not the issue here. I believe you ascribe to its absolute authority as much as me or anyone.
The point here, Shammah, is that your post was:
1) Very poorly timed.
2) Very poorly communicated.
3) Very poorly defended.
4) Very poorly based.
If I, a staunch adversary to anything remotely like what this "church" preaches, can see this as bad taste, it should tell you something.
1) Explanation: The timing of your post was bad taste because it was simply too unresolved. I would have been better to give a little more time to develope your thoughts, and present a clear point
2) Explanation: The fact is this. You did not, and have not, communicated the Truth with it's mandated Governor, God's Redemptive Love. Not touchy-feely love as you all but directly accused me of, but God's (agape) Love. I abhor touchy-feely emergent church madness as well. That is not what I am speaking of.
3) Explanation: I already addressed this.
4)You based your argument in a Truth, I will grant you that. But, you basically say that yes, God did plant the guard there, but the church should not have. Leave everything else out of it, that simply makes no sense.
Nathan was speaking to David, an individual re: his personal sin. Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Paul, Peter, etc etc were speaking to Israel i.e. the church i.e. God's people. My argument is well and living.
I should have said; you may quote Nathan, but I am not David.
I aspire to no martyrdom, and who is anyone to say who merits martyrdom? Are we now Roman Catholic?
I believe in the God of supernatural and divine power. I am not a cessationist. I am saying that if God had put the woman guard there, then why did anyone die?
Apparently according to latest new reports; the shooter may have taken his own life; a new wrinkle
If my post is based in truth, then it is not poorly timed,poorly written, and poorly communicated.
Agape has yet to be objectively defined in a satisfactory way.
I expect that if someone visits my blog or any blog for that matter should address the content of the specific post and the comments that are placed there. We are not here to psycho-analize the mindset or personalities of the writers.
As one that claims to have been falsely accused by the emergents or whomever, thanks for passing it along. You don't know whom you are addressing either. I will leave it at that. My arguments are backed by Scripture, to which no one has yet debated.
"I would have been better to give a little more time to develope your thoughts, and present a clear point"
As is always the case, the point becomes clearer as the comments come. I can't help those who don't see it.
"But, you basically say that yes, God did plant the guard there, but the church should not have. Leave everything else out of it, that simply makes no sense."
I asked a question;
if it was God's will that the guard was there, then why did people die? That makes no sense.
What God allows, is to be seen within the contxt of His sovereign will, so there is something above and beyond the visible events, that is going on here. We walk by faith not by visible circumstances. We are not to have the same attitudes about life and death as the rest of men do.This is one of many truths Psalm 139 tells us
I did not write what you are, saying I wrote.
"And you brag that you will not defend the sheep from wolves."
I hope that is what I am doing on this blog.I never brag.
I will do what I am able to do to defend anyone's life outside of making the church an armory. All else is out of my/our hands.
Acts 20:
28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. 29I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.
Matthew 7:
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Once again, the wolves are not hooded gunmen.
Our weapons are not AK47's.
The battle is not against men. Where is the interceding church?
This whole "snowball rolling downhill to hell" was started by konolia who had a knee-jerk reaction to my post; fired off her misunderstanding of it; and then never returned.
Shammah,
Why do you say this:
"I believe in the God of supernatural and divine power. I am not a cessationist. I am saying that if God had put the woman guard there, then why did anyone die?"
If read literally, as you instruct, it is an argument AGAINST the sovereignty of God--not for it.
The very literral possibilty of this whole matter is this:
Perhaps God called some of His children home, but stayed the hand of evil to spare others whose time is not yet fulfilled. The fact that a guard is at a church complex is not unBiblical. The temple had guards, by whose hands good deeds were done, and some deeds were completed that were intended by man for evil,that God intended for good.
The Nathan debate is still dead. No, you are not David either, but that changes nothing. I knew that Nathan was addressing David's personal sin. So was I.
And sir, you are not as backed by Scripture as you may propose. Your Scripture references contradict much of what you say, and YOU contradict much of what you say. You argue for Sovereignty in the same breath as what from any angle appears to be annihilationism.
The "nobody understands" argument is not by itself invalid, but it can be so when overused.
The issue here is exactly dealing with what you said in the original post and in this thread--not psycho-analysis.
Don't become what we have all been falsely accused of being.
I encourage you to think long and hard, brother. Also, I would appreciate you taking some time to read some of my own material. It is not my own in that sense. I yearn to write the agenda God directs. It is far from perfect, believe me, but my prayer is constantly to discuss what he would have me to and not what I wish.
Give my best regards to my dear brothers Ken, and Paul at CRN, they fight the good fight. It was from there that I found your post. It also might help me to know who you were if there were a name somewhere.
This has been a little ugly, I apologize for any wrong that may have come from my keyboard,
Please repent.
First of all it has been reported officially.
The security guard did not kill the shooter.
http://www.denverpost.com/popular/ci_7696167
More than likely he planned to take his own life all along, and I do not believe that he knew there would be armed guards in the church. Quite obviously, God is always in charge and will have the final say in all matters.
As for being accused of annihilationism.
That is a first for me. I am not arguing against God's sovereignty either, another first in terms of being accused.
I have not contradicted myself in the use of scripture.
I am not a calvinist, and am most certainly not arminian.I go to
the Bible alone as source of what I say and do.
As for the Nathan thing, I take it you are accusing me of some kind of sin; in fact you ask me to repent. What of? I posted something that some people did not care for?
I have not done anything wrong here. I would also never say this to someone I know nothing about.
Anyway, the minstries of Nathan vs the other prophets were of different purpose. I know of no one qualified to call out a brother on his alleged sins unless he has specific and personal knowledge of it, which I believe Nathan would have had, being privy to David's court and all.
The prophetic books of the Bible are adressed to the people of God in general and to the corporate sin and ignorance of the church, which we should all be concerned with.
The temple may have had guards, but we are now the living temple. David's tent is restored, not Solomon's or Herod's.(Amos 9;Acts 15)
The compelling issue is not the hiring of the guards, a neutral issue, it is the fact that the Body of Christ feels the need to hire guards. Whatever is not of faith is sin.
My intention was not to be ugly either, so for wherever there is a need , I offer my apologies.
Here is an interesting report on church security. I find most of the arguments for churches being armed very telling.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22191961/page/2/
Here is an interesting quote from the article:
On Sept. 15, 1999, a deranged man burst into a Wednesday night teen prayer rally at Wedgwood Baptist Church in Fort Worth, Texas, killing four teenagers and three adults.
The pastor, the Rev. Al Meredith, didn't heed calls afterward to post armed guards at the church.
"There just isn't enough money in the kingdom to hire off-duty police officers to stand guard at every door of every church," he said. He added that he didn't want to turn people away: "I want the church to be a welcome place for sinners."
My apologies, I meant fatalism. Sorry.
What I have issue with as far as repentance goes, is this.
I believe it damages our witness, and therefore grieves the Holy Spirit, when we do not clearly state the whole Truth. What I mean by that is that anyone reading your blog post would have no indication whatsoever of your grieved mind over the tragedy of the murder of innocent girls. All that was visible in the original post was that you believe that the church there is (and I agree with you here) apostate, and that it was more wrong to protect the flock within civil bounds.
By your lack of any visible heart rending (not saying it isn't present, just that it is not visible) you damage our witness to souls like Chris Lyons and others.
That is what should be repented of Brother.
About the Temple Guards, good point.
However, would you contend that it is wrong to see a Doctor when ill? Or, consult a lawyer when accused?
These may not seem the same, but if we are arguing about a lack of faith, are these not the same?
A lack of faith is sin, so is lack of resourceful discernment. We live in a time where God has enabled men to make large advances in medicine, would it not be foolish to rejoice in that? We live in a time and place where an accused man has civil rights enabling him to be represented by another more knowledgeable expert in law. We live in a time and place that still affords, by the Grace of God, civil protection from people like the perpetrator of this crime.
We should not forget that all these are by the Grace of God, and that in whatever condition our civil state, or physical state, our faithful state must always be under His Sovereignty.
Did you think about this this way brother?
Broken hearts and grieving families are no obstacle for doctrinal assaults during a time that should be better spent for prayer for the people involved.
It is this kind of doctrinal bullying that knows no compassion even during times of mourning. Congratulations, you have proved your point. Well done, the grieving families thank you.
Sorry (henry) rick,
but I never attacked the broken hearts and families nor talked negatively about the victims in anyway.
As a matter of fact, I emphasized that we grieve with those who grieve. I also pointed that Paul said we do not face life and death matters in the same way as the world does.
I am pointing out a problem in the churches and it is a problem.
I asked a question, "does anybody really believe that armed commandos are needed in our churches or that God wills this?"
On whose authority do you claim to speak for the victims?
It's amazing that the peace,love togetherness boys at .Info are for the death of anybody they view as their enemy while a "rabid watchdoggie" is actually preaching turn the other cheek.
Trust God, not Arminius. The reality is we have no control over anything that happens.
SJ
Of course I believe what Romans 13 says. The police and civil authorities are here for our good. However I do not view armed Christian vigilantes as civil authorities. As I said, only in America do we believe that God gave us the right to own weapons. That is something peculiar to this nation alone.He allows this nation to exist by His good grace. If we believe that the USA is God's only beloved, then the other nations of this earth (which are completely unlike us) exist outside of His will and divine providence.
Of course I am saddened by the horror of this.
My post was meant to address the issue of armed congregants.
I am assuming that the families and friends of the victims are being attended to by people who know them best, and not by sanctimonious phonies like (henry)rick freuh.
I agree with what you have just said and if I am guilty of a sin of omission then I apologize to all.
I am not sure what you meant by the Chris Lyons comment, but I view them and their blogmates as.... well,.... liars.
They accuse me and others of sitting back in our conmfortable homes and spewing judgment. I guarantee they all live more comfortably than me. They also pass judgement, but under the assumption that their judgement is righteous and our is not.
Let God be true and everyman a liar.
We are done for now.
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